Verse Seventeen

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From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008

Verse Seventeen
Douglas Allchin, 2002

Who leads well, the people never notice.
Next, comes one they cherish;
next, one they fear;
last, one they revile.

A leader who gives trust earns trust.
His profile is low, his words are measured.
His work is done when all proclaim,
"look what we've achieved!"

Verse Seventeen
Brian Browne Walker, 1996

The best leader is one whose existence is barely known.
Next best is one who is lived and praised.
Next is one who is feared.
Worst of all is a leader who is despised.

If you fail to trust people, they won't turn out to be trustworthy.
Therefore, guide others by quietly relying on Tao.
Then, when the work is done, the people can say,
"We did this ourselves."

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From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008

"Therefore, guide others by quietly relying on Tao. "

I like the idea of quietly relying on the Tao. I take it to mean relying on Seeing. Some take Seeing to mean Seeing our Source. Some take it to mean Seeing our wholeness. Either way of talking about it probably amounts to the same thing. It's the same vision.

I'm not sure about the idea of guiding others. I suppose this doesn't mean purposeful guidance. It could mean guidance when asked. And it could also mean guidance that you aren't even aware of giving. I think I might have said: guidance happens by quietly relying on the Tao (Seeing).

There's another nice line: "...who gives trust earns trust." I like that way of putting it. It's a simple observation. We're not being told to give trust if we want to get trust. We're just being told how life works. It's descriptive rather than prescriptive. It's not even a suggestion. It's completely non-directive. Seeing is like this too. It shows us the design of perception. However Seeing the design may affect our actions and our living works itself out in the living. There's no predicting what it will do for us. I would say it brings a satisfaction and an ease to my life. Others would likely put it differently.

Well, that's what comes to my mind about this verse.

Jim

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From: simon
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008

There is a beautiful honesty in this verse; things really do seem to happen "by themselves", no "doer" required...

Just a certain watchfulness that allows the space for everything to find its place.

I agree, Jim ( for all THAT'S worth!) about
Quote:
I suppose this doesn't mean purposeful guidance.

Looks like that here, too.

There is that wonderful saying in the New Testament, about foxes having their holes and the birds of the air having their nests, but the son of man has not where to lay his head...

Quietly resting in the Tao feels like the direction to home...

Enjoying this thread, even if it seems difficult to post - it all seems too obvious to write about!

'Time' tells me that one year ago today... Yet there is only the Present where everything is present.

Love to all
simon

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From: Janet
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008

jimclatfelter wrote:
"Therefore, guide others by quietly relying on Tao. "

hi jim, simon, all,

haven't been available too much lately, but let me jump in here.

leading or guiding is probably best done by example. there is nothing to do but, allowing for what is already happening. in that, there is an unspoken invitation open to everyone, already happening, too.

it really leaves whats happening, leading and guiding, rather than someone greater or bigger than whats happening.

i'm just re-reading and laughing to myself. i mean, whats happening, anyway? well, i think you know what i'm trying to say...

love,
janet

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From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008

Simon says: "Just a certain watchfulness that allows the space for everything to find its place."

Janet says: "there is nothing to do but, allowing for what is already happening. in that, there is an unspoken invitation open to everyone, already happening, too."

"The best leader is one whose existence is barely known."' Laozi

Maybe the best leader doesn't even know s/he is leading. Just being oneself may be the best way to lead. I get that from what you (Simon and Janet) are posting.

Jim

PS, I'm going to try to remember to use the official Pinyin spelling for Chinese words. I've avoided it because I was so used to the older Wade-Giles spellings, and especially because the spelling Laozi looks like it should be pronounced Lousy. Pinyin: Dao De Jing / Wade-Giles: Tao Te Ching.

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From: Janet
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008

jimclatfelter wrote:
Maybe the best leader doesn't even know s/he is leading.

hi jim, and all,

i think that statement may be true. as already stated in simon's post, its not 'purposeful'. its just living the Tao, living from Seeing. so immersed, its like drowned in Being!

i think they can be overlooked because they don't stand out. when they are noticed, its like your attention is on how well they move with the wind.

love,
janet

p.s. i don't know the pronunciations of any of these words. i only am starting to recognize some words from seeing them on the internet. the words have never been spoken to me. i would be very embarrassed to try and speak them out loud.

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From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008

Hi Janet,

I don't know how to say all the words either. Tao or Dao is pronounced Dow as in Dow-Jones. Wu wei is pronounced woo-way. Te or De is pronounced something like Duh. These words are usually translated to some English equivalent word or phrase. All I know for sure is that each word has only one syllable.

Jim

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